CENSUS 2010

[saw]

Mayor Sam has or will be appointing a committee to see that Roswell will reach the magic 50,000 population.

This commitee will spearhead the 2010 census and its responsibilites will include:

1. Create English and Spanish PSA's for local TV and radio stations to air.
2. Create English and Spanish advertising to be distributed around the City
3. Assist the Mayor with public speaking engagements as needed.
4. Reach out to the large population of legal and illegal Hispanics in Roswell.
5. Assist Census Bureau in recruiting local employees to do the actual count.
6. Involve all churches, asking ministers to discuss benefits with parishioners.
7. Create the educational information on how to properly fill out the forms.
8. Distribute information and conduct teaching workshops on filling out forms.
9. Lobby the City Council for $50,000.00 in City Funds to support the Census Committee's efforts.
10. Do whatever is necessary to secure the Hispanic population head count of legal and illegal aliens, since they both count toward the final census numbers.

City officals have a number of times stated that the population of Roswell is 53,000.

The last census bureau estimates Roswell at a little less than 46,000.

The committee will meet once a week for the entire year of 2009 and thru March of 2010.

Your tax dollars at work...

[Swadlo]

Well we know that the Roswell city governmen has not changed in decades.
SOS

Swadlo

[Neil]

Section 274 felonies under the federal Immigration and Nationality Act, INA 274A(a)(1)(A):

A person (including a group of persons, business, organization, or local government) commits a federal felony when she or he:

* assists an alien s/he should reasonably know is illegally in the U.S. or who lacks employment authorization, by transporting, sheltering, or assisting him or her to obtain employment, or

* encourages that alien to remain in the U.S. by referring him or her to an employer or by acting as employer or agent for an employer in any way, or

* knowingly assists illegal aliens due to personal convictions.


Encouraging and Harboring Illegal Aliens

It is a violation of law for any person to conceal, harbor, or shield from detection in any place, including any building or means of transportation, any alien who is in the United States in violation of law. HARBORING MEANS ANY CONDUCT THAT TENDS TO SUBSTANTIALLY FACILITATE AN ALIEN TO REMAIN IN THE U.S. ILLEGALLY. The sheltering need not be clandestine, and harboring covers aliens arrested outdoors, as well as in a building. This provision includes harboring an alien who entered the U.S. legally but has since lost his legal status.


IT IS ILLEGAL FOR NONPROFIT OR RELIGIOUS ORGANIZATIONS to knowingly assist an employer to violate employment sanctions, REGARDLESS OF CLAIMS THAT THEIR CONVICTIONS REQUIRE THEM TO ASSIST ALIENS. Harboring or aiding illegal aliens is not protected by the First Amendment. It is a felony to establish a commercial enterprise for the purpose of evading any provision of federal immigration law. Violators may be fined or imprisoned for up to five years.

[Daisy]

Thanks, Neil - someone needs to copy that and send it to the Roswell City Government, don'tcha think? It's not only WRONG to count illegals in the census (to get more big bucks), it's ILLEGAL, too!!

[Scott]

I love all this 50,000 garbage. I have been hearing it since I moved her in 1997. This business or that business, this industry or that industry, will come to Roswell if we only had 50,000. Who cares? Do we really need more businesses or industry to come here? Who does that benefit? Not me. We have too much traffic already and a city that continually fights growth at every turn. So why bother? So we can say we are bigger?

[Daisy]

So why bother? So we can say we are bigger?

I asked that question once and was told (by forum members) that a bigger city gets more federal and state funding. That's what I meant by 'more big bucks'. It's all about the almighty dollar - by hook or by crook, the powers that be want MORE MONEY........so, yeah, count the illegals, too, for a bigger population count.

[saw]

Did you note that Councilman Maples wants to annex some of the County properties in todays RDR? (Councilors make resolutions for City)

The move to annex more land into the City has already been scrapped by the City. Someone should have told Councilman Maples.
The City can't provide the infrastructure required for the land that is in the City Limits now.

While reading this article in the paper this morning I came to the conclusion that all of the resolutions must have been made under the influence except that of Councilman Henderson.

Revenues are not just flat, they are dropping fast.

[Daisy]

There ya go, Scott - in the article saw referenced, Maples stated:

"That's the magic number that gets us to qualify for municipal programs that the federal government has," Maples said. "Right now we're not eligible for many of those programs because we're not big enough."

50,000 - the 'magic' number............count illegals, annex more land into the city, spend taxpayer money for the Census committee's efforts - do WHATEVER it takes.............. just get us to that "magic number"!!!!

It's absolutely pitiful.........:no:

By the way, I thought Henderson's resolution could have been made while 'under the influence', too. He said he wanted the city to continue it's conservative approach toward finances. I haven't seen that the city has a conservative approach.......

[Swadlo]

Speaking about Henderson??
Is this the man who is a retired city Worker still working for the city,(Some where there is a statement about him still having an office in city hall) and is on the city council? Some one please tell me what is wrong with this picture. If we don't get together and get rid of this type/kind of government, then we deserve what we get. Because no one wants to do anything nothing happens except they get bolder and do not even try to hide the fact that they don't care about the city of Roswell or the people who live here.

DO SOMETHING OR SHUT UP
Just my opinion
Swadlo

[saw]

If the City can't afford to staff a Police Department for a city with a population of 46,000, how are they going to afford to staff a Police Department for a City with a population of 53,000?

[kralspaces]

How silly of you, saw... with the Federal and State Grant money of course...oh wait, who going to bail out the Feds and State so they can give us that Grant money? Yes, that's right - you and me. Sounds like a winner...

[Neil]

Found this interesting.

Private persons and entities may initiate civil suits to obtain injunctions and treble damages against enterprises that conspire to or actually violate federal alien smuggling, harboring, or document fraud statutes, under the Racketeer-Influenced and Corrupt Organizations (RICO). The pattern of racketeering activity is defined as commission of two or more of the listed crimes. A RICO enterprise can be any individual legal entity, or a group of individuals who are not a legal entity but are associated in fact, AND CAN INCLUDE NONPROFIT ASSOCIATIONS.


Especially when you look at the Federal definition of harboring


Harboring -- Subsection 1324(a)(1)(A)(iii) makes it an offense for any person who -- knowing or in reckless disregard of the fact that an alien has come to, entered, or remains in the United States in violation of law, conceals harbors, or shields from detection, or attempts to conceal, harbor, or shield from detection, such alien in any place, including any building or any means of transportation.

Add to this the intention to use taxpayer money to do it!

[kralspaces]

Michael Savage used RICO in his recent multi-million dollars law suit against CAIR and a liberal Judge in SF threw it out. Even though we have these laws on the books, who can afford to exercise them. Savage's own words:

"Unfortunately after spending over $250,000, I discovered the legal system is stacked against patriots and favors even those who are unindicted co-conspirators in a federal anti-terrorism trial. Rather than spend more funds fighting both those who attack free-speech and the courts, I chose to withdraw from this battle and fight other battles, in fairer venues."

So the question is... who's going to pay-to-play against our City Government in court?

[Swadlo]

So the question is... who's going to pay-to-play against our City Government in court?

Simple, fight city hall with their own laws.

Swadlo

[mfish]

Many "city fathers" have been diametrically opposed regarding this issue.
There's one faction that will lie, cheat or steal to get to that magic number of 50,000 + population, for the increased federal money (and "bragging rights" at economic development seminars).

There's another faction however, that likes Roswell just the way it is - and will quietly and covertly work to make sure Roswell stays a sleepy little burg with insufficient infra-structure and services - but comparatively low cost of living expenses (except gas prices, perhaps ...).

It will be interesting to watch - will there even be enough illegals left to count or to make a difference? Many are going "home" (read: Mexico) because of the current economy. That plan to count illegals might blow up in the faces of those who think it's appropriate to count illegals to get to the number they desire... I hope it does, actually, because a city's population count should be based on the number of PERMANENT residents who live, work, and play in a city. NOT on the number of "temps" that migrate in to work available jobs (and use services without contributing to the tax base in many cases), only to migrate out when those jobs dry up.

Roswell has been chasing the pipe dream of a 50,000 population since the 70's - and they've fallen short of the mark in every census which frustrates the bejeezus out of the chamber, the city council, and the ED guys... who can't seem to own up to the fact that Roswell's population base has been stagnant for decades (in the 40,000 range, +/- five thousand or so depending on the oil patch activity, retiree recruiting, and the like), and will remain stagnant until something major happens - like a huge increase in liveable wage jobs (NOT motel housekeepers, waitstaff, or retail counter staff).

By bending the count to include illegal citizens, Roswell will most likely still fall short of the mark, and then they won't have an accurate count from which to base their future efforts on to actually legitimately grow into a 50,000+ city. So, they'll be screwing themselves silly with this ploy - because they won't know how many people actually live in Roswell legitimately. So by the next census, they might actually have NEGATIVE growth, to compensate for all the cheating done this go around ... how will they explain THAT one, I wonder...?

And the vicious circle continues ... and won't stop turning senselessly 'round and 'round until major changes are made within the city adminstration and city council.

[Scott]

Well said Fish

[kralspaces]

I can concur with Fish as well, except for one clarification. The only thing that has been cheaper in Roswell for me the last 3.5 years is the cost of buying a house. After that, everything has been more expenseive than my experience in Sacramento CA, including taxes. The only reason I can come up with for this phenomena is the lack of available product and lack of competition.

The only other way to expand the population is to expand the city limits and that just isn't going to happen. The last annexation that I am aware off was at Atkinson and Country Club pushed through by developer Paul Taylor to the objections of most of the property owners in that area. This was supposed to bring us a whole new housing track but NOTHING has happened since.

[Daisy]

The only thing that has been cheaper in Roswell for me the last 3.5 years is the cost of buying a house.

Hmm.........we spend a lot of time in Albuquerque and Rio Rancho and I know for a fact that food, clothing and other things that people typically buy are way cheaper here than in those places. (yeah, except for gas - it's always cheaper there) I don't know about construction and building supplies, though.

...and will remain stagnant until something major happens -like a huge increase in liveable wage jobs

I agree with this - we NEED viable businesses in order to keep our young people here and bring in other people. I don't think we need to expand the city limits just to boost the census.

And the vicious circle continues ... and won't stop turning senselessly 'round and 'round until major changes are made within the city adminstration and city council.

There's the kicker, folks - we desperately need new people in the city administration!!!!! People who are more interested in doing things for the good of Roswell, rather than for the good of themselves and their buddies.

[saw]

The new census committee is chaired by Dr. Judy Armstrong. The remaining thirteen are three city councilmen, two city employees, three more that are on the public payroll, two from the news media, one county commissner, one preacher, and one works for an utility company.


Their names will announced at tonites city council meeting I am sure.

Tonite 7PM Channel 11 cable.

[saw]

I found some interesting data on the Chaves County Development Foundation
site.

It states that the 2000 census figures were 45,296 for Roswell and 61,382 for Chaves County. OK so far.

Then they estimate that in 2006 that the population of Roswell is 52,900 and the County at 62,500.

This indicates that the County increased it's population by 1118 and the City increased it's population by 7,604.

Since Roswell is still in Chaves County the math says that 6,486 folks moved out of the County into the City. Very interesting.

This increase translates into about 2500 more homes being occupied in the City from 2000 to 2006. According to the building permits there was 478 new residential housing units built from 1999 thru 2006.

Another confusing statement is that within a 45 minute commute the population estimate is 130,000 folks. If they are driving a car they can get to Artesia, Dexter, Hagerman on the South, if you go North, nothing, If you go West, Tinnie, If you go East , nothing. Maybe they are counting the sheep, it didn't say people, just population.

They didn't say it was driving time however, so maybe they were flying a jet-copter.

Bob Donnell is one of the members of the 2010 Census Committee.

[mfish]

Now, THAT is a classic example of typical Chaves County / Roswell muckity-muck double speak!!! A treasure of a find, Saw - be sure to make a copy and store it someplace safe, because I suspect once it gets back to them how STUPID they sound and look with those figures (and that someone exposed the stupidity), that bit of info will be taken off the site.

See, they're hoping no one takes the time to do the math, or actually THINK about the idiotic garbage they spew ...

What's sad, is that the County Commission and City Council most likely sat through a report with those exact numbers and figures and just nodded when they felt it was appropriate (before signing over more funding). You just KNOW no one has bothered to question this - except NOW!!!!

And they wonder why the only industries they can attract the ones no one else wants ...

[saw]

Another member of the "2010 Census Commmittee" was selected because of his ways with the numbers: Councilman Richard Lovato!!:smk3:

Fish, I made a copy of the population report by the Chaves County Developement Foundation and locked it up in my Al Gore box

www.chavescounty.net

[kralspaces]

saw, Who are they that you are referencing? What is the source for the data on this web site? It apparently is not from the CMP. At least the CMP is on target for 2010.

See 2005 CMP, Section 10 for the latest documented historical statistics and projections.

ROSWELL 5-YEAR INCREMENTAL POPULATION PROJECTIONS 2005-2025
(All figures based on the 2000 U.S. Census Bureau population of 45,293)
YEAR #1-Lowest #2 #3 #4-Highest
2005 46,412 46,692 47,582 48,702
2010 47,543 48,103 49,883 52,123
2015 48,686 49,526 52,196 55,556
2020 49,841 50,961 54,521 59,001
2025 51,009 52,409 56,859 62,459
Avg. Annual % Incr. = 0.45% 0.61% 0.97% 1.41%
(Source: City of Roswell, Planning Department – 2005)

[saw]

Kral: "They" are Mayor Sam who has stated both in print and verbatim that the population of Roswell exceeds 50,000. Zack and Bob have also put the population at 53,000 plus or minus both verbatim and in print.

Now as far as the CMP tracking, I have these comments, the 2005 CMP stated that the population was 46,412 while the US census estimate was 44,767 in 2005. The projected population by the CMP for 2010 was 47,543 which if you whip out your old graph paper you will see that this is a straight line from the 2000 population with a mid point of 46,412 estimated in 2005.

If you check out the US Census estimates you will note that the 2007 population was 45,569 which is less that the 2005 CMP estimated population of 46,412.

The US Census estimate for 2005 was 44,767 for the Roswell population which is a difference of 1,645 than what the CMP stated. Roswell had lost 526 folks since the 2000 census of 45,293.

Most folks do not realized that Roswell lost population from 2000 until 2007.

Bear in mind that these are the most conservative projections by the CMP. The middle of the road projection by the CMP was 47,137 for 2005 and 48,993 for 2010 which is less that the big 50,000 number.

This is nothing new, the CMP most conservative projection in 1984 put Roswell's population at 72,336 in 2005.

The mission of the 2010 Census Committee is to find more than 50,000 folks in this Roswell , my guess there will be about 46,000 final count.

Most all of the "real" projections put Roswell at the 50,000 mark in 2025.

Would anybody like to bet?

Just one more thing, Zack is also a member of the "2010 Census Committee"

[kralspaces]

thanks saw, (AKA: Stats). I knew we could count on you for this analysis. I concur whole heartily that Sam, Zach and Bob will end up with egg on their faces when the census results are finalized. Even if they go door to door like the old days, they will be hard pressed to find 50,000. It's still 12 months away and the housing industry has resently halted here in Roswell. No one is building on speculation any more. Our track is sold out and nothing is being built. Resells will start to sell now and if you have some rental property (non-FLETC) it might be a good time to list (supply and demand). House prices in Roswell have not dropped because they are already low enough for most transfers.

[rover]

I worked for the 2000 census, was a real eye-opener. When I went to houses in certain areas (carrying my clipboard looking official) I'd look into open doors and see "them" scatter like...well, scatter in all directions. I think their fright was because they thought I was with immigration, and I couldn't convince them of otherwise. My job WAS to count them. I saw nearly wall-to-wall pallets and serapes on the floors clearly showing a large quantity of people residing there under one roof. My assumption was they were illegals working in the nearby farms, whether temporarily or otherwise...later I was told the places they "holed up" were vacant properties in which they were squatting.

Yeah, 46,000 was the official population number provided by census but from my experience, I'd say that number was MUCH higher...With census you're not only supposed to count permanent residents but also temporary...You know even college kids far from home are listed at that location...It's an accurate count that counts, not who's legal and not legal...illegals DO count with census, considering their over-all impact on the community and area.

[saw]

Rover:

Sorry if I confused you but the 2000 census indicated that Roswell had a population of 45,293. in 2003 the population had dropped to the low point of 44,438 and then started to gain and in 2007 the offical estimate sets the population for Roswell at 45,569. The 46,000 figure was my estimate for 2010.

As I remember the census worker of 2000 and she filled out a form which listed our names, (SS number?) occupations, and all kinds of other stuff. My question is, does this happen at ever home?

Now for some hypothetical questions: My son brings ten of buddies home from Ft. Bliss on leave. They will live at my house for one month. The census worker comes to my house to make the count. Are the ten guys a resident of Roswell? Are they a resident of El Paso? Are they a resident of their permanent home in maybe Dallas?

If you count an illegal do you get his/hers name plus all of his/hers information like they did with us in 2000.?

Post #3 has some legal questions/comments that you could comment on.

[Daisy]

If anyone needs a job, you can be a census worker and help Roswell get to that magic 50,000 population number. The article says they will be paying $11 to $15 an hour - and the test is supposed to be fairly easy. You can read more about it here. (http://www.roswell-record.com/main.asp?SectionID=49&SubSectionID=112&ArticleID=37611)

[kralspaces]

If anyone else is interested in knowing what the City projections were back in 2005 and where the City will be by 2025, here is the link to the Master Plan: http://www.talkroswell.com/talk/master_plan/

[saw]

If you want to read something interesting check out the "Master Plan Site" that Kral has provided in the previous posting.

Be sure and read the "CMP Executive Summary.Doc" section. Makes me ready to move now.

Some of the surveys that it reports on also makes my head hurt. .

I read it some time ago but check it out and let us know what you think.

[MItransplant]

There is a lot of stuff going on here:
From the 1st post (Saw)
"4. Reach out to the large population of legal and illegal Hispanics in Roswell. 10. Do whatever is necessary to secure the Hispanic population head count of legal and illegal aliens, since they both count toward the final census numbers. " These are the only two items dealing with undoccumented hispanics.
from 2nd post (Neil) for shortness sake, only the first part
"Section 274 felonies under the federal Immigration and Nationality Act, INA 274A(a)(1)(A):
A person (including a group of persons, business, organization, or local government) commits a federal felony when she or he:
* assists an alien s/he should reasonably know is illegally in the U.S. or who lacks employment authorization, by transporting, sheltering, or assisting him or her to obtain employment, or
* encourages that alien to remain in the U.S. by referring him or her to an employer or by acting as employer or agent for an employer in any way, or
* knowingly assists illegal aliens due to personal convictions."

From points 4 and 10 (10 depending on how you define doing whatever necessary) there is no breach of section 274. Counting illegal aliens is not the same as assisting them. They are not being transported, sheltered, or assisted with obtaining employment. I'm not saying that the process is the height of tranparent government, it just doesn't cross the line of being illegal. This is even the case if they know that the people are illegal, though I have a feeling that the city will opperate under a see no evil approach.
Also this does not fit under the definition of harboring. The census workers are not concealing, harboring or sheilding from detection, rather they are counting. May seem like a minor thing but legally it makes a difference.

Should these undoccumented hispanics count towards Roswell's population? If their numbers are stable then absolutely. Roswell doesn't educate for a population of 45,000 because it ignores 5,000 possibly illegal immigrants. It educates for 50,000. Same goes with providing funds for law enforcement, public safety, infrastructure and so on. Wether or not they are legal doesn't change their impact on the costs of opperating the city effectively.

Should Roswell go for 50,000 and does it change anything? Perhaps. If the 50,000 mark will improve Roswell's access to federal funds, there is a benefit. If roswell is already having a hard time paying for its police force, perhaps federal funds can fix that.
As far as bragging rights for 50,000, some people must be crazy. Whether the population is 49,999 or 50,001, the city doesn't really change, and anyone who thinks so should be drug tested. The only exception to this that I can think of is if part of the federal funding that is opened up as a result of that population growth of two people is directed at economic development, tax incentives, or infrastructure projects. In that situation, the city does change in terms of attracting business.

Swadlo, your numbers about the change in population in Roswell and in Chavez county seem really fishy. Did any of the Arthur Anderson execs retire here?

[saw]

Does anyone know the answers to my questions that I posted at #47.

If an illegal has been here for many years with a family, regular job, etc, then, maybe you count him.

If an illegal is here for the chile picking season do you also count him if you can catch him?

What about Dean Baldwin? They had Eighty employees one day and thirty five the next day.

What if they are working here legally with a green card but are going back to Mexico next week?

I really think the only way they should be counted is if the are citizens of the USA.

Anybody got any comments?

[jsatterfield]

I am with you saw, if ther not legal just take down there address and call the border patrol, Or Officer Corn, 3 cheer's for officer Corn. roflmao.:shoot:

[Swadlo]

This would be a better place if mo people like Officer Corn did their jobs. To include city governments.

Swadlo

[Daisy]

I really think the only way they should be counted is if the are citizens of the USA.

I agree 100% - you should NOT count illegals. But then again, I don't think they should get benefits of any kind, either. No benefits, no rewards, no nothing unless they do it the right way and become a citizen.

[shelby]

50,000 — is a magic number for cities. With it comes designation as a metropolitan statistical area, or MSA. MSA status is a magnet for federal money.

This is good for Roswell - it means more businesses and which means more jobs.

I support the Mayor and his efforts - not to count illegals - but to be sure every citizen is counted.

[shelby]

Why is it that whenever someone does their job (such as officer Corn) that minorities scream RACISM??? It is only going to get worse now with a racist president!

[Neil]

I agree 100% - you should NOT count illegals. But then again, I don't think they should get benefits of any kind, either. No benefits, no rewards, no nothing unless they do it the right way and become a citizen.

At least one politician agrees with you.

http://www.candice-miller.com/news/Read.aspx?ID=37

[Daisy]

Thanks for the article, Neil. I agree with Rep. Miller's stand on the subject and also like her introduction of a constitutional ammendment to "apportion seats in Congress based only on the number of U.S. citizens in each state".

The constitution apparently says to count everyone, but that was probably decided on before thousands and thousands of illegals became leaches, sucking everything they can from their host.

[Swadlo]

Swadlo, your numbers about the change in population in Roswell and in Chavez county seem really fishy. Did any of the Arthur Anderson execs retire here?

I am sorry, but I have no idea what you are talking about. Please enlighten me.

At least one politician agrees with you.

http://www.candice-miller.com/news/Read.aspx?ID=37

You will notice bingaman or udal's names are not on that list. They belong to richardson, like, in hip pocket

Swadlo

[saw]

I talked with the city clerk at Farmington a couple of years ago and she said that the MSA thing was not so great from the Federal Goverment. She said a lot of strings are attached. Farmington's MSA population is over 100,000 population, way bigger than the entire Chaves County population.

As far as new business rushing to in because Roswell topped the 50,000 mark, my question is why?

As a businessman would you choose Roswell with the high crime rate, lack of affordable housing, low per capita income, low sales revenue per capita, no skilled labor pool, no growth for the last thirty years plus other things.

If anybody can tell me any good reasons why a worthwhile business would want to come to Roswell, please do so.

[Swadlo]

Laundry business, as in Money Laundering. Can anyone explain all the business Establishments with no business

Just a thought.
Swadlo

[kralspaces]

I talked with the city clerk at Farmington a couple of years ago and she said that the MSA thing was not so great from the Federal Goverment. She said a lot of strings are attached. Farmington's MSA population is over 100,000 population, way bigger than the entire Chaves County population.

Kral Says: One can only 'HOPE'! After the Hope Adminsitration is done handing out our tax dollars to friends and family, New Mexico and especially Roswell will see very litlle if any, strings or no strings.

If anybody can tell me any good reasons why a worthwhile business would want to come to Roswell, please do so.

There would need to be one big event that would create dollars and then others would follow the money. What would that big event be? Alien Theme Park?

[Neil]

The biggest problem for Roswell in trying to attract manufacturing business is the simple fact that we're in the middle of nowhere. You need some economical way to bring in the raw materials and to ship them to market. We don't have that sort of infrastructure.
As I'm writing this my second cup of high octane coffee kicked in and gave a possible solution. We need a canal from here to a major transport hub in the North of the State. Don't laugh, think about it. A project like that would take years and cost billions, but it would provide employment for thousands give us a way of transporting massive quantities of freight very cheaply, plus we would have a way of moving the flood water they don't want in the North down here where we desperately need it.

[Zoidberg]

we would have a way of moving the flood water they don't want in the North down here where we desperately need it.

What flood water?

[saw]

TMC's biggest problem was the parts to build the buses came from back East and the market for the buses was back East not to mention the skilled labor pool was also back East.

Unless they can catch the illegals and count them I see no way that Roswell will come in at 50,000. The sad thing is that the City has all tools to see that this is not going to happen and yet they are going to throw away many bucks and hours.

[MItransplant]

I am sorry, but I have no idea what you are talking about. Please enlighten me.
Accountants for Enron.

[kralspaces]

Unless they can catch the illegals and count them I see no way that Roswell will come in at 50,000. The sad thing is that the City has all tools to see that this is not going to happen and yet they are going to throw away many bucks and hours.

The only way is through annexation. For those of you in the county (ETZ) beware of what Mr. Maples new years resolution was in the RDR. He was serious and he is still trying to sell this concept to increase the City population. If you live in the county and want your voice heard, contact Andrew Cone (acone@roswell-record.com or 622-7710 ext. 27), RDR reporter, and express your feelings.

[Zoidberg]

I've got it!

Do the census count during the July 4th UFO festival. I'm sure Roswell will easily pass the 50k count at that time.

I saw they were recruiting people to work for the census here in the local paper. Wouldn't it make more sense to recruit them from outside, so we can get new people to count toward the 50k?

What number I'd like to see most: a census that only counts people who aren't meth users. Now THAT'd be an interesting criteria for funding.

[saw]

I just got my real estate report: 14 homes were sold in January with an average cost of $99,894.00. There are 61 homes listed for sale with a price tag of more than $300,000.00. Need one? great time to buy!

Kral: Zack has stated a number of times verbally and in print that annexation is out of the question. Keep me posted.

[kralspaces]

Someone gave into pressure once before when a certain developer insisted on having a certain trianglar parcel between East Country Club on the south, North Akinson on the West, East Berendo on the North and the Railroad tracks on the East annexed. And it was.

I understand that former Mayor Bill Owen proposed the same strategy that Mr. Maples is pushing now to make the 50,000 back before the 2000 census. Didn't happen then and propably won't happen now.

[saw]

Annexation process:
The method of annexation for new territories is through the Boundry Commission Method. A municipality petitions the BC to annex territory. The BC is then appointed by the Governor. The municipality must pay per diem and mileage to the BC, plus the cost of advertised notices for public hearings and the of developing the annexation plat and filing cost.

The BC determines whether the territory is contiguous to the municipality and whether the territory "May be provided with municipal services." The second condition may also be satisfied if the municipality demonstrates the ablity to provide services to the territory in a reasonable period of time. The BC will order the annexation only if these conditions are met.

After receipt of a petion for annexation, The BC must hold its first meeting within 60 days. Following the meeting, the BC must publish notice of a public hearing for four consecutive weeks. At the public hearing the BC will make its decision. If it orders the annexation, it will file that order with the District Court, and the order is final after 30 days. However, any land owner within the annexed territory may request review by the District Court.

The most favorable areas to consider for annexation that could be provided with municipal services are listed below:
#1 Territory located south of Pine Lodge Road and East of Montana Ave. to City limits. This area covers 550 acres with a current population of 80.

#2 The other possible area recommended for annexation is between East Second St. and McGaffey, between the present the current City limits to the west and Meadow Brook Rd. to the East. This area covers 440 acres with a current population of 20.

Maples will have to get his act together!

[Swadlo]

Maples will do nothing unles someone else is laying the ground rules and telling what to do and when and how. Maples is not smart enough to do it himself. Someone else is punching his buttons. Watch for stubbs to jump on board.

Just my opinion
Swadlo

[saw]

Maples plan for annexation that I just got this AM:

Annex South from Pine Lodge Road to 2 miles south of the airport and from 6 mile hill to Bitter Lakes.

Someone needs to get the butterfly net out.

Watch RDR for the story.

[mfish]

STUBBS?!?! She makes Maples look like a genius, Swadlo ...

[saw]

The city coveres 29 square miles now. If this were to happen it would cover 156 square miles +-.

We need to send this guy to Washington!

[kralspaces]

Why stop there. Roll in Hagerman and Dexter while your at it and call the area the City and County of Chaves.

[Scott]

LOL who is gonna patrol all that area and provide fire services. Not to mention water, sewer, etc.

[saw]

Obama is going to give you guys some of those super fast jet choppers with twin 50's in the nose and a rocket launcher. It will be your job to make sure no one lives in those areas and there will be no need for water, sewer, etc.

[Swadlo]

STUBBS?!?! She makes Maples look like a genius, Swadlo ...

Wow mfish, you give stubbs more credit than she deserves. Now tell us who is pulling stubbs strings. I'll bet it is the same group that is pulling maples strings.

If Roswell gets to the 50,000 magic number, that will mean more money that "Someone" Has access to. More money for "Someones" pockets. Think about it. The money pit we used to have is getting bare.

Swadlo

[saw]

Mr. Maples reduced the amount of land that he was going to annex in today's RDR. Bet some of those farmers , dairy folks, and Lepriono Cheese gave him something to think about, like we are not about to increase our property tax by 40%. He has now decided to stay on the West side of town. Someone might have told him that there is problem of running sewage uphill from the East side.

The area that he wants to annex now does not have a lot of people living in it but has some high dollar land (pecan orchards) and some high dollar homes.

That could be the plan, annex it, if the City does not get the 50,000 population they will get a bunch of property tax. It is a win win deal for the City.

Let us see what the Planning and Zoning boy's say.

[Swadlo]

Maples is as dumb as a box of rocks. He is pushing some one elses agenda. If this farce work it will be fine. If it fails like it did the last tome , maples gets the blame. Win win situation for who ever is pushing his buttons.



The only thing reaching the magic 50,000 number will only mean the people who are stealing the city blind, will have more money to loan people who will give it to city councilors.



We all need to get on this and kill it.



We don't need any more good ol boys doing favors for each other.


Swadlo

[mfish]

Once they put the pencil to all the curb and gutter and street paving, and garbage, water and sewage services they'll have to supply to those western areas, I think they might have second thoughts...

[kralspaces]

I found this Sunday reading all the news in SENM. http://www.lcsun-news.com/new_mexico-legislation/ci_11622452

Do you all remember Lauren Toney? She was with the RDR last year and now is with the Las Cruses Sun. Here was a very interesting story about HB 40 that will change the way annexations are determine in NM.

I am not sure the people on the West Side ETZ want anything to do with the City. Roswell had a chance for 50,000 if they had promoted itself to the baby boomers 2 years ago. 60% of the home owners on our block are baby boomers and from out of state. Another missed opportunity. Zach Montgomery wrote an update to the CMP in 2007 and promoted the importance of the baby boomers and the City Leaders ignored it again. There was no real marketing effort.

[kralspaces]

Also, I don't think Planning and Zoning will be in favor of an annexation unless there is an Alien Theme Park involved.

[mfish]

It's pretty sad when the "only option" to reach the brass ring of 50,000 people is to drag in more land mass through hostile annexation ... especially when the people you're looking to drag into the city confines CHOSE to live OUTSIDE of the city limits for a number of reasons.

Counting illegals is pretty bad (and overtly illegal in and of itself), but skewing the actual city limits to reach your dream number takes the cake.

Gee ... why not just annex the whole damn county, Maples? There are approximately 60 - 75,000 residents (+/-) in Chaves County and if you just swallowed the entire area, you'd have your precious body count for sure!

Of course, you idiots at city hall couldn't offer the necessary goods and services to most of those new residents - hell, you can't seem to keep up with the area and the population you currently oversee:

**Too few and underpaid law enforcement officers, and a high crime rate
**Outdated sewer lines
**Crappy streets
**Poor garbage collection systems

And the list goes on - and THOSE are many of the reasons folks choose to live OUTSIDE of your domain, Maples - because you and the rest of the inept city council can't get a handle on the land mass you already "rule" over - let alone adding even more land - and residents - to the mess.

One thing about Bob Maples - he proves his stupidity every time he opens his mouth!!!

[saw]

mfish, I do like your style!!! Further, I am so glad you called those idiots at city hall "idiots" so I didn't have to call them "idiots". Kudos to your eloquent description of what the problem is.

Ten years ago I attended all of the meetings concerning those idiots' proposal for annexation. The question was asked if the targeted areas were annexed, how long it would take to start providing some city services. The reply was a minimum of 10 years. Ten years has come and gone and still the city can't seem to take care of the existing infrastructure within the current city limits. In fact, any expansion of the city's infrastructure has been very limited over the past ten years.

A notation on the decade old annexation proposal: at least those idiots were targeting the more densely populated areas on the city's fringe. That is, however, the only vaguely redeeming feature of their huge brain fart. Maple's proposal indicates that he may have severe problems with reality and/or thought process. If he thinks the majority of the citizens want to be included in his delusional scheme, he hasn't seen MAD/ANGRY/ENRAGED/TOTALLY ****** OFF yet. But it's coming if this goes any further. (He really should check with Bill Owen who was Mayor at the time to get a grasp of what the public's reaction was.)

The city officials know as well as I that the official census estimates indicate a 6/10 of 1% growth from 2000 to 2007. The county's growth during the same period was 2%. It looks like the county is doing better with growth than the city, however neither is winning any prizes. My estimate would be 46,000 for the city at the end of 2008. The city has all of the tools to come to the same conclusion I have, but nobody seems to know how to use them. Methinks they are using the old Titanic theory that everything is OK until the water starts coming up on the deck.

[kralspaces]

This statement in today's editorial is false. We do not get to vote on GRT increases. That decision is solely up to City Council or the County Commissioners.

On the plus side, living inside the city comes with some benefits. The city provides property owners with water and sewer lines and trash collection. Police services would be extended to the new areas of the city. The city would also be responsible for maintaining the streets in the annexed areas. Annexed residents would also be able to vote in municipal elections, which would give them a say whenever changes to the gross receipts tax are up for a vote. They may not live in the city, but residents on the edge of Roswell do their shopping in the same places as city dwellers.

Here’s the rest of the editorial: http://roswell-record.com/main.asp?SectionID=57&SubSectionID=151&ArticleID=39289

What do you think of this idea. The City Census Committee is trying to get a 50,000 head count, legal or illegal. What if the City annexed the ETZ for 2010, count the people and then de-annexed the ETZ in 2011 and give them their freedom back. I can glean many ways to make this happen, except to convince the residents in the ETZ. Our City leaders have no track record to support that they would de-annex. However, I believe the residents do have that right, but it would take some effort.

[mfish]

... The city provides property owners with water and sewer lines and trash collection. Police services would be extended to the new areas of the city. The city would also be responsible for maintaining the streets in the annexed areas. ...

I'd like to see the city COMMIT to doing those very things in a timely manner for the annexed areas - that would be very interesting, considering they can't provide those services adequately for the "city proper" as it stands.

[Daisy]

What if the City annexed the ETZ for 2010, count the people and then de-annexed the ETZ in 2011 and give them their freedom back.

Do you people really want to hit the damned 50,000 mark that badly?? That is just, oh what's the word................sneaky, shady, dishonest, unethical - all of the above and then some.

Sorry, but that's how I feel about it - leave those people who chose to live outside the city limts ALONE - they don't want to be part of this crap!!

[kralspaces]

Acutally Daisy, I would like to see 50,000 and the MSA that comes with it. However, there is probably no way to make it happen this time around unless we do something "sneaky, shady, dishonest, unethical".

[Daisy]

So, you're like the government (federal, state and local) - it's okay to cheat, as long as you get the desired result.

Well, that's just wrong, no matter how you justify it.........:sly:

[jsatterfield]

So what you’re saying Kral, is business as usual in Roswell. If the city wants something bad enough then it matters not to the city how they get it. Does anybody remember how they got the old bank building were the PD is now?

[kralspaces]

Miss Daisy and J.

I didn't say that I supported any of those adjectives. I said I would really like to see the MSA money in Roswell. The rest was just repeating your post (cut and paste). It isn't going to happen, so Roswell will stay stagnant another 10 years. Enjoy it, as it is.

[Daisy]

I didn't say that I supported any of those adjectives.

Okay, but you made it sound as if you DID support that idea of annexation and de-annexation which is what I was describing with those adjectives. You did say, "What do you think of this idea?", so we told you what we thought. Obviously, I thought it was a bunch of...........well, crap. :smk3:

[kralspaces]

Guys,

I have only been here 3 years and I have been throwing out ideas to anyone who would listen about growing the population to 50,000 so the city would qualify for MSA. Some of my ideas aren't necessarily doable, but at least I keep trying right down to my last and most desperate suggestion. Most of you guys have been here for the last 10 years and I have to ask, what have you personally done to make this happen? Do you even care? I thought I had Zach Montgomery's ear in 2007, but that also came up fruitless. Sometimes you have to give in to your moral righteousness to get business taken care of. As long as I don’t hurt someone, I am open-minded about it. Without the MSA, Roswell is stalled. Instead of being progressive, it has been regressive. Baby Boomers aren’t going to come because our taxes are way out of line (I’ve spent 2 years focus on this issue). Businesses are reluctant to come because we don’t have the labor force for them. Did you know that 23 doctors left Roswell last year? Another one is leaving next month. I had two doctors move in across the street last month, one from Atlanta and the other from Canada (to get away from socialized medicine). They have to sign a 2 year contract and most leave after the two years. That is just an example of how difficult it is to keep good people in Roswell. Schools are high on the list for leaving. That’s what they told me. What do I know, except that our taxes are unfair.

[Daisy]

I have only been here 3 years and I have been throwing out ideas to anyone who would listen about growing the population to 50,000 so the city would qualify for CSA.

What IS the CSA you want so badly to qualify for? I'm not being a smart ***, I just don't know.

Sometimes you have to give in to your moral righteousness to get business taken care of.

No, you don't. There's right and there's wrong, moral and immoral and no one HAS to cross those lines, despite the fact that so many do.

[mfish]

The million dollar question has always been: How does Roswell grow up into a "real, live" city?

And so far, no one has been able to come up with the proper answer, because any time "progress" is talked about or even taken to the initial planning stages, "someone" shoots it down ... I've said it over and over - there is a certain faction in that town that's very comfortable with Roswell just the way it is. They speak with forked tongues, too - in public they'll give off an aura of wanting progress. But when the doors close and it gets down to the nitty gritty - nothing changes.

And until that faction dies off, moves away, or has an epiphany - you're beating your head against a brick wall.

Don't let the scab get infected ...

[kralspaces]

daisy, I so disagree with your statement. No one has the same right, the same wrong, the same moral and the same immoral as another person. We are all different people and my 'right' reason may very well be your 'wrong' reason.

Of course you didn't know what CSA was. It should have been MSA - metropolitan statistical area or over 50,000 population.

[Daisy]

Of course you didn't know what CSA was.

Thanks for clearing that up for me - I knew what MSA was from other posts, but thought I missed something when you mentioned CSA.

[Daisy]

The million dollar question has always been: How does Roswell grow up into a real life city?

That really IS the real question - I don't believe the answer is to lie, cheat and/or steal to get enough numbers to get more money. What the answer is, I don't know. :ohwell:

[jsatterfield]

Krals,
I don’t think that Roswell will have trouble with reaching 50,000 now, E-Verify was striped from :shoot:King Obama’s Stimulus Bill, House Speaker Pelosi, Senate Majority Leader Reid and the Obama White House were absolutely certain about one thing for the House/Senate negotiating committee on the Stimulus Bill: There was to be no special restriction to keep illegal aliens from getting new jobs created by the bill at a cost of $250,000 to $500,000 each. I thought the problem was bad now, It is fixing to get a hell of a lot worse. We need more CORN.

[saw]

CONFEDERATE STATES OF AMERICA! (CSA)

Mr. Maples will make his case for annexation before the P&Z 3/3/09 at the Ciity Hall conference room, 8:00 AM.

If he is sucessful it will be presented to the full City Council later.

[kralspaces]

saw,

they finally agree with you, but then don't agree with you:

"Henderson presented population estimates conducted from 2005 to 2007 which have the city's population at around 46,000. "Of course, we're above this but we don't know by how much."

[saw]

Did you read the letter to the Editor in todays paper from the gentlemen that stated that his property was annexed into the City 26 years ago and he still does not have City services.

Ever time I ask the question "what makes you think that we have more population than what the official census reports indicate" I get an answer like "look how much taffic there is on Main Street" or "look at all those houses they are building out North" and "look at all of the motels and restaurants they are building here."

Nobody seems to know any facts that indicate growth and the statement that Henderson made "we know that there is more than that". OK Mr Henderson tell us how you know there is more than that out there and why the official census estimates are wrong.

[kralspaces]

I read all the letters. Did you read the letter from Toni? Her best yet.

[mfish]

Henderson reiterated the city's "outreach" plan to attain the magic number in the following article (count all the illegals, even though they are not citizens).

http://roswell-record.com/main.asp?SectionID=49&SubSectionID=112&ArticleID=39398&TM=35071.04

My question to you is, how many will remember these and other questionable acts by your council when the NEXT election rolls around ...? Or are you going to continue to hold your noses and vote these buffoons into office?

[Daisy]

"We have about 3,000 people in town that are not citizens," Steve Henderson, chairman for the Government Subcommittee, said.

Yep, citizen or not, legal or not, let's count them to get to that magical number - what BS! :no3:

[kralspaces]

If they just want body count, isn't South Park inside the City limits. I know. SICK!!! There's nothing else to say about this topic either and we should be planning for 2020 now.

By the way, how immoral is it that our City Leaders knew they had 10 years to get this done and basically waited until 2009. To me that is significant because the City will lose millions every year from now until ????

[mfish]

"There's nothing else to say about this topic either and we should be planning for 2020 now."

Well, now - that pretty much depends on how the census effort is actually conducted ...

[kralspaces]

Annexation is not going to happen. Counting 4,000-5,000 illegals is not going to happen. The city should NOT have gotten itself into this situation. Zach Montgomery publically stated we had 53,000 in 2007 and convinced the Mayor and City Council. The Mayor publically stated we had 53,000 in 2007 and 2008. Everyone accepted that and sat on their laurels because there were absolutely no major marketing program between 2007 and 2009 to draw more people to Roswell. Now, how morally corupt is that? I say we don't let that happen again and make sure we have more than we need to qualify for MSA in 2020.

[Daisy]

I'm confused (again) - what was their point in lying about the population? What was there to be gained from that - was it immorality or just plain stupidity?


However, Mr. Greens $80,000 business dealings seem to be more important.

I don't know about anyone else, but wrong doings and shady dealings in the city gov't. are WAY more important in my book than the almighty MSA. I'd be more than happy to reach the 50,000 mark, IF it's done honestly. That doesn't seem possible now - so be it. I won't be losing sleep over it.

[mfish]

Kral, you seem to be jumping from one side of the fence to the other with no focus. At one time, you write that you're "satisfied" regarding the Green dealings, yet now you say it's a bigger fish to fry.

At one time you go on and on about how the city could annex and then release (de-annex?) areas of the city to attain the magic 50K brass ring - and go on and on about how important it is to reach that number (by hook or crook), yet now you promote focusing on 2020 and moving on to bigger fish to fry (mentioning the Green deal you not too terribly long ago were prepared to move on from).

With flip flops like you're exhibiting in your posts, maybe you SHOULD consider running for city council - you might be a good fit...:pinch:

In my opinion, BOTH issues are excellent EXAMPLES of the "big fish fry" - both issues show how poorly run Roswell has become and how there is a real need to reform the city government and dredge the bottom so the bottom feeders have no more food on which to feed.

[Neil]

We need more CORN.

Courtesy of Officer Corns actions yesterday, you now have one less to count :naughty:

[Daisy]

Nice job, Officer Corn! Could we go for 5 or 10 fewer to count - say by the end of the month?? I know, I'm just never satisfied, huh? :pinch:

[Swadlo]

If they just want body count, isn't South Park inside the City limits. I know. SICK!!! There's nothing else to say about this topic either and we should be planning for 2020 now.
By the way, how immoral is it that our City Leaders knew they had 10 years to get this done and basically waited until 2009. To me that is significant because the City will lose millions every year from now until

Big Spoon the question you should be asking is, "How much money will the city loose if the council keeps making bogus loans.

Swadlo

[jsatterfield]

"We have about 3,000 people in town that are not citizens," Steve Henderson, chairman for the Government Subcommittee, said.

If Mr. Henderson and the City Council think that there are only about 3000 Illegal Aliens in Roswell, then the City Council needs to come out of the shadows, (because the Illegal ‘s have) and the comfort of living in the northern part of Roswell, and take a trip south of 2nd street.

Mr. Henderson and the CITY Council should visit Wal-Mart on a weekend, or go out to the Roswell Industrial air center, (after dark please). If Roswell has a population of at least 42 to 45,000 and all the Illegal Aliens would agree to be counted I guarantee you we will hit well over 50,000 people. If the City Council truly wants to hit the 50,000 mark find a way to count all the Illegal Aliens in Roswell.

[Daisy]

City Councilor Bob Maples has it wrong; annexation is not the answer.

The answer is for trusted influential people (like priests) to pass the word that, while the Census is federal, that entity does not share gathered information with the INS.

This was taken from a letter to the editor in the RDR. The letter writer has it wrong, also.........in my opinion. Illegal aliens should NOT be counted just so Roswell can reach that magic 50,000 population number. Why........uh, cuz they're ILLEGAL. We shouldn't count them unless and until they go through the LEGAL process of becoming an American citizen. Then, by all means, count them!!!! If you have to hide from INS because you are BREAKING THE LAW, you damned sure should not be counted for a correct census, since only citizens should be counted as residents of the city. Non citizens (illegals) should be sent back to their country of origin until such time as they can be here LEGALLY.

That's my opinion and, by golly, I'm stickin' to it!! :smk2:

[kralspaces]

Well, well, well !!!! There you have it. Payback time: http://www.roswell-record.com/main.asp?SectionID=57&SubSectionID=194&ArticleID=39638&TM=30790.65

[mfish]

Villegas makes some salient point, however misguided his motivation might be.

[Daisy]

Yeah, I feel another letter to the editor comin' on.........:smk3:

[Scott]

That letter to the editor was so lame. Good Christian, non-citizen family, huh. Now a member has Lukemia because of the stress. Oh please. I suppose he would be happier if law enforcement only enforced the laws he agreed with. Law enforcement officers should have the good sense to only enforce the laws that really matter, right?

[mfish]

Villegas and the city want it both ways - for different ends.

The city council and mayor wants to thump their chests and show everyone what measures "they've" taken to curb the invasion of illegals, but then, they want to count them all to reach a golden number for a golden ticket.

Villegas wants to see any and all illegal immigrant be left alone - but is prepared to hold them over the heads of the people who want to include them in the golden ticket count.

Can someone tell me why either the city council and mayor, or Villegas - should be given any credibility?

[Daisy]

Can someone tell me why either the city council and mayor, or Villegas - should be given any credibility?

They should not!! Both are exhibiting big time Hypocrisy - yes with a capital H - and I despise that in anyone!! :mad:

[saw]

There will be a Planning and Zoning meeting March 3, 2009- 8:00AM at the Mayor's conference room.

One of the items on the agenda is "Counselor Bob Maples - Annexation"

The Chairperson is Judy Stubbs, 624-7038, member Sonny Espinonza, 623-5211, member Duane Green, 623-8379

If you have any drag with any of these committee members, do me a favor and call them and tell them what you think. This annexation can lead to only one thing, higher taxes for citizens of Roswell not to mention higher taxes for those that are in the area of annexation.

When a City can't afford a Police Department they don't need to expand the City Limits.

If you would like to attend you can also hear the latest from the 2010 Census Committee. This would be a good time to get your opinions in about counting the illegals.

[mfish]

I say give Villegas and Oroposa what they want (see article linked below) - don't spend any time, money or other resources on the ILLEGAL ALIENS when counting for the census - if Roswell TRULY has "close to 53,000 people," Mayor LaGroan - then you don't need 'em anyway - But I think we all know where this is headed - Mayor LaGroan, Reverend Maples, Henderson and the others are setting up a big ol' scapegoat for when they fall short of the mark. They'll have yet another thing to blame on the Hispano Chamber of Commerce (which, had the regular chamber embraced the Mexican community in the first place, would not have been needed).

Oh - and Mr. Oroposa - what exactly did you mean by using the term "so-called illegals?" Isn't that "kind of" like being a "little bit" pregnant? Either you are a legal resident of the USA or you are not.

Sidebar: What do think Villegas et al., would have to say if someone started up an ANGLO Chamber of Commerce? (I know - they'd argue that's already in place).


http://www.roswell-record.com/main.asp?SectionID=49&SubSectionID=112&ArticleID=39828

[saw]

If Maples has his way with this annexation the City will increase the total area by about 40%.

According to the City they HOPE to gain 1600 folks, that will increase the population by about 4%.

I don't think that this increase will justify the cost so it means that the taxes will have to increase for the City.

I don't have any doubt that the taxes will go up on my property that is in the City limits now and the folks being annexed will have a big jump in taxes.

This will take place right away even before they extend water, sewage, and roads.

Just the Police and the road upkeep will bust the budget. There is a lot of miles of County road in the area that they plan to annex.

P&Z meeting in the morning at 8 AM at City hall. Get your two cents in before it is too late. Call Maples, Stubbs, Green, Espinoza and let them know what you think if you can't make the meeting. This will not be the last meeting about this issue.

The City is a red City and the county is a red County in a blue State and in a blue Nation. Even if the City makes it to 50,000 do you think that that Roswell will be getting all that money? Remember LBJ in the sixties? The way things are going now I don't think it will make a bit of difference if Roswell is 47,000 or 57,000. Business will not be doing any expansion for a long time methinks.

[mfish]

A well-written response to Mr. Villegas' mis-guided threat to boycott the census count below ...

http://roswell-record.com/main.asp?SectionID=57&SubSectionID=194&ArticleID=39951&TM=32444.93

[saw]

About 50 folks showed up at P&Z meeting at 8AM this morning. Standing room only in main Council chamber.

At about 8 AM Mr Maples called and said he would not be at the meeting. He said he still had to do more research.

Some very unhappy citizens.

Next meeting, first Tuesday in April most likely at the civic center.

Henderson and Espinoza both stated that they were against the annexation. Green was there but not say anything. Judy Stubbs tried to conduct the meeting as best she could without Maples being there.

Zach explain how the procedure would take place if the Council approved a move to annex.

PS. 69 folks signed in and 68 of them are against the annexation.

[mfish]

TYPICAL MAPLES STUNT.

Look up the word "chickensh*t" in the dictionary and you'll find his picture.

[saw]

RDR headlines "MAPLES SKIPS P&Z MEETING" !!

How about that crowd of 70 folks, looks like Maples would take the hint.

The RDR is doing a good job and Cid Standifer is outstanding for a young reporter. I just hope that she can stand the heat. I have already heard a councilman say that she is causing problems.

City Hall has a lot of problems now, crime rate, sign ordinance, annexation, H P Performance, contract with the RPD, a law suit about the the golf pro, another law suit that we don't with who or what, closed session to discuss a collective bargaining strategy, not bargaining in good faith, census counting of the illegals, Hispanic community, a police department that is about 15 officers shy of it's budgeted numbers, plus some more and none of them caused by Cid.

Cid you just keep up the good work!!!!

[saw]

City; Juan you are breaking the law if you don't get counted during the census.

Juan: Mr. City what are they going to do to me if I don't get counted?

City: They will deport you back to Mexico.

Juan: Mr. City what are they going to do to me if they find out I am illegal?

City: They will deport you to Mexico.

Juan: Mr. City I think I will take my chances and just be very quite because I don't see anything in it for me but a free trip to Mexico. Being very quite has worked very well so far and I don't care if Roswell is going to be a MSA or not.

City: Then we will have to catch you and deport you if you don't get counted.

Juan: Mr City, you and the US Goverment have been trying to catch me for twenty years. Do you think if I don't get counted you will have a better chance of catching me? :no3:

Legal Resdent: Mr City, it has been estimated that 7-8% of the Cities residents are illegal. The duty of all of the law enforcement agencies in the USA is to deport these illegal residents. If they are not legal residents, should they be counted? Is this like counting your counterfeit money? :ohwell:

[Daisy]

Good story, saw - and extremely frustrating! I don't think the illegals should be counted.................THEY'RE ILLEGAL! You can't be illegal for some stuff and legal for other stuff. Wait, I guess you can when only a few will enforce our laws.........:pinch: This whole thing is making me pissy.........:mad:

I'm sick of the city council greedily and grubbily reaching for that gold ring. (the magical 50,000)

I'm sick of Villegas bellyaching and thinking he's all that! (he ain't)

I'm sick of people bashing our police officers for doing their job and doing it well. (I applaud you)

I'm sick of illegals thinking they have the right to hold ANYTHING over our heads. (they have NO rights)

Okay...........my rant is over............:shower:

[Swadlo]

Well said and true.
Swadlo

[Daisy]

The Hispano Chamber of Commerce makes a decision on census count.

Hispano Chamber votes... (http://www.roswell-record.com/main.asp?SectionID=49&SubSectionID=112&ArticleID=40743&TM=33859.49)

[saw]

I would like to see Roswell hit that 50,000 mark but if we have to do it by counting a chile picking crew, Deal Baldwin's paint crew, or by annexation I would just say forget it!!!!

If The council thinks that when they get MSA status that the US Calvary is going to come over the hill with a box of gold to rescue Roswell, they better check the color of their Kool-Aid.

[postmaster]

Looks to me like the mayor et al should be arrested, ya think?

[postmaster]

I would like to see Roswell hit that 50,000 mark but if we have to do it by counting a chile picking crew, Deal Baldwin's paint crew, or by annexation I would just say forget it!!!!

If The council thinks that when they get MSA status that the US Calvary is going to come over the hill with a box of gold to rescue Roswell, they better check the color of their Kool-Aid.

Would that be the Obama kool-aid? Remember hearing about that!:naughty:

[postmaster]

RDR headlines "MAPLES SKIPS P&Z MEETING" !!

How about that crowd of 70 folks, looks like Maples would take the hint.

The RDR is doing a good job and Cid Standifer is outstanding for a young reporter. I just hope that she can stand the heat. I have already heard a councilman say that she is causing problems.

City Hall has a lot of problems now, crime rate, sign ordinance, annexation, H P Performance, contract with the RPD, a law suit about the the golf pro, another law suit that we don't with who or what, closed session to discuss a collective bargaining strategy, not bargaining in good faith, census counting of the illegals, Hispanic community, a police department that is about 15 officers shy of it's budgeted numbers, plus some more and none of them caused by Cid.

Cid you just keep up the good work!!!!

A letter to the editor applauding Cid's reporting might be appropriate about now......

[Scott]

Quoted from the RDR.

Henderson said that a change of policy for the Roswell police would most likely have to come through the Police Council Committee.

Yeah the Police Commitee tells the PD what laws the can and cannot enforce. LMAO

[John M. Cleary]

President Obama, has decided on a census director...


"WASHINGTON (AP) - President Barack Obama has chosen Robert M. Groves to be the next census director, turning to a professor who has clashed with Republicans over the use of statistical sampling to lead the high-stakes head count."

Groves believes in a census that is done by statistics, just like political polling.

This means there will not be a legal Constitutional head count.....but they will extrapolate the numbers, from small samples, in order to supposedly, accurately count minorities.

Its not only unconstitutional, its simply unfair and will allow the Obama administration to cook the numbers and create congressional districts, friendly to them.

I guess it won't matter how many people Roswell annexes or counts, because the numbers will be what the feds want.

We will be back to taxation without representation, I think we all know where that led before.

[zbratkat]

The most contentious issue: whether to rely on mathematical sampling in addition to old-fashioned, one-at-a-time counting to measure the country's population.

The 1990 census missed an estimated 8 million people — mostly immigrants and urban minorities — and it managed to double-count 4 million white Americans.
http://www.time.com/time/nation/article/0,8599,1879667,00.html


In 1999, the Supreme Court ruled that sampling could not be used for the purposes of reapportioning congressional seats, and the Bush Administration chose not to use sampling to fill in the gaps of the 2000 census.

Census counts are also used to determine how many federal dollars may flow to a city or state based on grants and other outlays. Democrats have long charged that the undercounting of minorities and poor Americans prevents federal funding from reaching strapped communities.

So if the Supreme Court ruled that the sampling cannot be used for purposes of reapportioning congressional seats and the sampling will onlymanage to net communities with more money, the problem is what exactly?

[saw]

Renee Roach is on the council agenda 6/11/09 to bring us up to date on the 2010 census. It will be on cable, channel 11 at 7pm.

[John M. Cleary]

So if the Supreme Court ruled that the sampling cannot be used for purposes of reapportioning congressional seats and the sampling will onlymanage to net communities with more money, the problem is what exactly?
The problem is........this administration could careless about the rule of law, look at the buy outs, the new pay czar and the new media.

[saw]

I am not sure that more federal bucks solves any problems. It seems to me that the more bucks you throw at the welfare issue, the more problems you have with the welfare issue.

I have been told that folks went California so that they could a better deal on welfare and now what has California got, a welfare program that they can't afford.

About 24% of the families in Roswell lives below the proverty level. If more welfare bucks are available, I think that the number would just increase.

I know how we can get an accurate count, for about three months just put some census folks at the wefare offices and make everone sign on to the census when they show up to get the welfare assistance.

I know that a zillion bucks have been spent on welfare over the last 50 years and the problem is bigger now than ever.

I understand that the census 2010 committee did not report at the council meeting Thursday night. I missed the meeting, someone bring me up to date.

[Neil]

I am not sure that more federal bucks solves any problems. It seems to me that the more bucks you throw at the welfare issue, the more problems you have with the welfare issue.



The whole idea of the welfare program was to act as a safety net but for many it's turned into a hammock.

[saw]

The 2008 (July 1, 2008) census bureau estimates just came out and Roswell has made to the 46,198 mark. The city has gained a little more than 1000 folks since July 1 2000.

I missed my guess of 46,000 by 198. I will make one for 2009 now 46,500.

[kralspaces]

You might be going in the wrong direction. I am aware of a number of senior citizens leaving. Medical specialty was the most frequent reason I have heard.

[saw]

The following are estimates from the US Census Bureau for Chaves Co.
for the period from 4/1/2000 to 7/1/08

1. The county lost 2,018 folks due to domestic migration. More citizens of the US are leaving that are moving in. These are the some of the folks that Kral is talking about. Some of the others leaving are most likely to be the fathers* of all of those babies below. :shoot:

2. The county gained 1,100 folks due to international migration. This is the folks that are legal and those that are not.

3. The birth rate exceded the death rate by 2,860 babies. There was 7,952 births and 5,092 deaths.

4. The net gain for this period was 1,678 +-folks. Looks like the net gain is entirely babies.

*Looking at the births in RDR it appears that about three out of five are born out of wedlock. :ohwell:

[Zoidberg]

*Looking at the births in RDR it appears that about three out of five are born out of wedlock. :ohwell:

I believe this is pretty much in line with the national average.

The cloud does have a silver lining, however. In some cases, the father does stay around and act like a father, except for the marriage license part.

[saw]

LaGone talking about the cities' medical problems was quoted in the RDR
"This isn't just our problem" LaGrone said. "this is, hopefully, 54,000, or so, peoples problem---75,000 or so, in the county, so it's everone's problem that we're looking for solutions to."

So according to our leader there is now 54,000 or so population for the city and 75,000 or so for the county.

According to the 2008 census estimates (as of July 2008) the city had a population of 46,198 and the county had a population of 63,072.

Now with the hispanics talking boycott, the census committee is going to have perform some miracles.

I would think that this kind of gain in population would have a major impact on revenues for the water department. 2007-08 Budgeted revenues were $8,677,621 and the 2008-09 budgeted revenue was $8,638,760.

None of Sam's gain in population must be drinking water, taking baths, or flushing commodes.:puke:

[rover]

I submit that it is not a Roswell conspiracy to count illegal aliens (migrated here from anywhere) to increase our numbers to 50,000. I was a 2000 census enumerator; per our instructions, the federal census rules are to count ALL residents regardless whether or not legal. We--as in infrastructure of Roswell, Chaves County, NM and USA--must support all residents whether or not taxes are gathered from them. When I was enumerating, in some areas I saw large numbers of illegals run and hide when they saw me coming. (Some even tried to intimidate me.) I talked to the resident nuns in those areas, asking them to pass the word that I was not a "federale" (at least not the kind they'd fear) but those nuns said they were scared of us.

About 2010 census: Hundreds, including me, were tested and informed we passed and qualified to work the census, but unless we were of the right political persuasion, and approved by ACORN, we were not hired. Long before now, certainly by this time--so close to 2010, much census preparation work should already be well underway. IS IT??

[Daisy]

Hundreds, including me, were tested and informed we passed and qualified to work the census, but unless we were of the right political persuasion, and approved by ACORN, we were not hired.

Corruption runs rampant and hinders progress............government business, as usual. FUBAR! :no3:

[pdc]

Corruption runs rampant and hinders progress............government business, as usual. FUBAR! :no3:

Thank the good lord above there is no corruption or dysfunction in the private sector - 'cause then we'd really be up a creek....

We elect the government - no one else can accept accountability fpor that, and we get the government that reflects us - deal with it!

[John M. Cleary]

Thank the good lord above there is no corruption or dysfunction in the private sector - 'cause then we'd really be up a creek....

We elect the government - no one else can accept accountability fpor that, and we get the government that reflects us - deal with it!


I accept responsibility for my vote , not yours or any other person.

When the elected gov't we have is a farce and that is what we have now I will speak out and I will fight to remove it!

I will also not report anything to the census other than 2 people live here, that is my Constitutional requirement.

[Daisy]

We elect the government - no one else can accept accountability fpor that, and we get the government that reflects us - deal with it!

We all have to 'deal with it', but we don't all have to take responsibility for it. Only you who voted these people in have to do that.

rover, if I were you, I'd be proud that I wasn't approved by the likes of ACORN. It's a shame, though, that so many people want to help with the census but can't because of an organization so corrupt it reeks.

Not only FUBAR, but SNAFU as well..........I really like those two words - they are especially good for describing this administration. :smk3:

[Daisy]

I will also not report anything to the census other than 2 people live here, that is my Constitutional requirement.

That's true - and that's all they'll learn from me, too. That's all they need to know for a head count.

[saw]

FUZZY MATH!

In the RDR Friday Mayor Sam expressed confidence that Roswell had hit the 50,000 pipulation mark. Then he goes on to say the biggest challenge will be to get all of the undocumented immigrants counted.

Then he says that Mike Gottllieb, supertintendent of schools, told him that there are 3000 students in the RDR district who are here illegally. I assume that 99.9% are hispanic.

Then the fuzzy math starts, Sam says "If you use the old multiplier of 2.5 by 3000 you can see that we are talking about 6,000 to 7,000 people right there".

The current student population in RISD is 10,012 so if you multiply that figure by 2.5 you will see that the population of Roswell would be 25,030. I guess if you would have done it in 2000 when the school population was 10,308 the population of Roswell would have been 25,770. That might have changed since we have had this population gain since 2000. No school kids just population gain.

So much for Sam's calculations. The figure of 2.5 is really the average number of people in a single residence. He must have been confused by all that lime light. :ohwell:

Let us look at the 3000 illegals in the schools, this means that means 30% of the school population is illegal. The population of Roswell at the last official estimate was 51% hispanic. I would guess this that would go for the school district also, right. So that means that 5106 of the students are hispanic and that 59% (3000)of them are illegal. Does the math look good so far?

The last official estimate for the population of Roswell was 46,198 folks and 23,561 of them are hispanic and 59% (13,900) are illegals or 1 of ever 3.32 of our population is illegal. :new_shocked:

To be fair not all of RISD's population is from Roswell but not all of our illegals bring their kids with them to pick chili. Sam should reschedule the census to match the chili picking season and he would have a better chance to get the 50,000 count.

All of you Talk Roswell folks, check my figures and let me know what you think. This might justify a letter to the editor. Before anybody gets upset, I am not picking on the hispanics, I just have a question about the mentality of two of our City's leaders.

[saw]

One of the indications that a city is growing is the public school enrollment.

1997-98 RISD enrollment was 10,940

Fall of 2009 RISD School enrollment was 10,012 the first time I believe it was more than 10,000 since 97-98.

Numbers like these do not support a population of 53,000 that Mayor Sam keeps on telling us poor dumb citizens. However I have been told that Roswell must have a population of at least 50,000 because the traffic on Main Street is really heavy.

[samsara]

I'm not filling that thing out just to spite the mayor...and the government for not putting my race on that paper.

[kralspaces]

Now that is just the wrong attitude. They have a place for 'Other'. Write it in.

[samsara]

But I dont feel like I should have to. Hispanics are a vast majority america, its offensive. There are like 10 boxes for asians. (I'm not racist, I'm also part asian.)

[mfish]

I plan to complete the census in the most minimal way possible. They'll be able to count me, just not use my data to promote agendas.

[kralspaces]

Too late. They already have your data.

[kralspaces]

But I dont feel like I should have to. Hispanics are a vast majority america, its offensive. There are like 10 boxes for asians. (I'm not racist, I'm also part asian.)

They don't have a box for my nationality either. But I am an American now. Please complete the form so that New Mexico will get it's share of Federal spending. Otherwise, Texas will get it.

[oladcock]

Yep, take the crack, consume the kool-aid...It could be looked at as our tax dollars being returned that our politicians will use in ways we wouldn't approve of! :)


They'll get numbers and ages from me, that's all the constitution mandates. And yes, I'll pay the $100 fine if need be, maybe they can determine race, income, and sexual preference from that!....O.L.

[kralspaces]

It doesn't matter what you fill out or don't fill out on the census form. If you give them your name, they can figure out the rest. I guess you haven't been watching '24' for the last 8 seasons. There is more truth to what you see at TCU then you know about. I already know they got all my numbers. I just changed insurance companies and the new company already had access to everything they needed for the application. I only updated a few minor things. All the government needs to do is triangulate between several different data bases and they will have everything they want. As I said to mfish, it's to late.

[samsara]

If they know my information so well then they can fill out the blasted form.

[Daisy]

But then we won't get all those precious $$$$$$$ that everyone is grubbing for...........'show me the head count and I'll show you the money'. Count the illegals and all, just so we reach some magic number for some of that magic money.

It's a farce, as far as I'm concerned....

[samsara]

Yeah its pretty obvious it is. They wouldn't be pushing the citizens so hard if there wasnt some sort of monetary incentive for them.

[pdc]

Yeah its pretty obvious it is. They wouldn't be pushing the citizens so hard if there wasnt some sort of monetary incentive for them.

My two bits, for what its worth....

Getting to 50K makes a really big difference for cities in terms of eligibility for dispersion of (already collected) tax money. The money is going to be allocated somewhere, regardless, but the proportions could vary based upon the census count

Overall, the census will also be used in determining congressional seat allocations, and in any redistricting of voting districts.

Roswell has struggled to make 50K for decades - anything that hinders a full and accurate count would hurt Roswell, especially if it resulted in falling short of 50K.

The refusal to be counted is, IMNSHO, a very selfish and shortsighted move.

Reluctance to answer all of the questions is a distinct issue, as far as I'm concerned, and while I personally regard such reluctance to be on the paranoid side, I am not nearly as critical as of the refusal to be counted....

[saw]

My question, where are the stats that support the claims of plus 50,000 population. The city is spending some $40,000 to convince folks to be counted. The census bureau estimates the population at a little over 46,000 for 2008. That is $10 per head for the missing 4000 that is needed.

Like Kral says, the feds have the numbers and in the past their estimates have only been off only a little bit. (less than 200 in 2000)

The city has access to the same stats as the feds and they (the city) are reporting a 10% difference. You would think that Sam would come up with at least one thing that would support his claims of more than 50,000, like maybe soda pop sales are up, just anything.

I know, Just tell the folks that don't sign up that they can't collect welfare,etc. if their name is not on the census.

[Daisy]

You would think that Sam would come up with at least one thing that would support his claims of more than 50,000, like maybe soda pop sales are up, just anything.

No no, it's my opinion that the Mayor is convinced that when he speaks something, it becomes the truth - no need for real, solid, factual proof.....:rolleyes:

[oladcock]

"Getting to 50K makes a really big difference for cities in terms of eligibility for dispersion of (already collected) tax money."

Nope, not collected yet, been borrowed from China! They have such a great human rights record! :)

Well heck lets bring in 5 or 6K more illegals to hit that 50K mark. Counting 1 or 100,000 is all the same fraud.....O.L.

[Neil]

No no, it's my opinion that the Mayor is convinced that when he speaks something, it becomes the truth - no need for real, solid, factual proof.....:rolleyes:

Like a priest:naughty:

[kralspaces]

The refusal to be counted is, IMNSHO, a very selfish and shortsighted move.


You couldn't be more correct.

[John M. Cleary]

I'll participate in the count, it is my responsibility as a citizen and the governments responsibility to complete.

Now when they start asking what time I leave for work, how many toilets I have etc.

This is where I draw the line.

[kralspaces]

John, I'll keep saying this until I am blue in the face, but 'they' already know how many toilets you have and I wouldn't be surprised if they know how many times you use it.

Take a look at the census form. http://2010.census.gov/2010census/how/interactive-form.php

samsara, take a look at question 8.

[Daisy]

Well, looky there, the Hispanics get a box all their own. Can't complain now, huh? ;)

But I can - how come we 'whites' don't get our own box? :msn-cry:

Never mind, I can think of many other things to be bothered about.....:smk3:

kral, I'm pretty sure 'they' don't know how many toilets we have, how often we use them, or any other of our personal matters. 'They' wouldn't know all that (and more), unless 'they' installed cameras in our homes. That hasn't happened............yet.

[saw]

This is the form that are talking about reprinting because it has the negro on it. Guess what you are not suppose to use that word no mo.

In the past there was another form for satistical use which will ask all kinds of things such as "do you have running water or a telephone or a TV and how many etc." If you get one of these and chances are you won't I don't think you have to fill it out.

[samsara]

Hey geeeze. A box. Awesome. I should just put mutt and confuse the hell out of the government. Yeah that sounds like a plan.

[Daisy]

I will also not report anything to the census other than 2 people live here, that is my Constitutional requirement.

A good video on the Constitutionality of Census questions.

Know Your Rights (http://easylink.playstream.com:80/jerryday/Matrix/Census_ffp_vp6_400x224_300.flv)

[oladcock]

Sounds like more fuzzy math from politicians, all in an effort to defraud taxpayers...O.L.

[saw]

Ever notice when our local officials quote census numbers they never offer any stats like school enrollment, number of active residential water meters, employment numbers, number of new homes built, plus all of the other stats that they have to support their predictions of the total population numbers.

If anyone can present any stats to support this 50-53 thousand figure that keeps being touted, please do so. Thanks!

[mfish]

They can't. Because it won't even come close to 50,000. (Unless someone fudges the numbers ...).

[saw]

The citizens of Roswell just spent $40,000.00 to make sure everone will be counted.

Just for fun, let's say that the advertising blitz got 3% of the population counted that would be missed otherwise. Three percent would amount to about 1400 folks according to the latest estimates from the census bureau which still will not be the 50,000 mark. In fact they got to find about 8% more than the census estimate that will come out and be counted.

If I remember right the 2000 census estimate missed the actual count by less than 200 folks or about 4/10 of 1%.

Oh well, it made Rich Johnson a happy man.

[kralspaces]

What ever happen to public service announcements?

I thought the city approved $20,000. Are you saying that was in addition to an initial $20,000? The people that need to be counted in order to make a difference don't even read marketing literature, in English or Spanish.

$40,000 is how much Sam spent on his campaign and the people did not come out to vote.

[Daisy]

Where did you get that particular number of how much LaGrone spent on his campaign, kral? Just curious...

[saw]

The budget FY 2010 had $20,000 and then they added another $20,000 last council meeting or maybe the meeting in January.

[oladcock]

"The budget FY 2010 had $20,000 and then they added another $20,000 last council meeting or maybe the meeting in January."

And I'd like to see an accounting of where every last penny of that was/will be spent. Looks like we're spending $100-$200+ per person gained in the count and still won't hit 50K unless they cheat and lie....O.L.

[kralspaces]

Where did you get that particular number of how much LaGrone spent on his campaign, kral? Just curious...

I happen to get out of my house and have coffee with the locals. For example,

Sam actually thought he was going to win until this last week end when he finally realized that he might lose.

Sam and this campaign wanted to have that 22% grt increase reported in Feb (Dec spending) published in the RDR before the election.

As for his investment, he had $23,000 two weeks before the election and I heard and seen twice as many campaign ads after that. So I just doubled his second report amount. saw will be able to get you the actual amount.

[saw]

The GRT for December (22% increase) was being compared to to the worst year ( Dec. 2008) since December 2005. (12/05 $2,296,128--12/08 $2,290,063)

So what it boils down to is December 2009 was better than December 2004by 22%.

This means that when COLA is brought into the picture, December 2009 was about the same as December 2005.

Maybe that is why the good ole boys did want to talk about it.

[saw]

The 22% increase in GRT was nice and the put the 4th quarter for 2009 over the 4th quarter of 2008.( +3.4%) Comparing it to Hobbs drop of about 30% reveals that Roswell's gross taxable revenue for the 4th quarter 2009 was $236,855,683 while Hobbs' gross taxable revenue was $318,687,003.

I call it politician's math, they never tell you the whole story. While Hobbs did drop and Roswell did gain, the Hobbs gross revenues were still almost $82,000,000 more for the quarter than that of Roswell which is a much bigger city. (Hobbs 30,000, Roswell 46,500 population)

Carlsbad a city of a little over 25,000 population reported gross taxable revenues of $156,310,656 and Artesia with about 11,000 population reported gross taxable revenues of $136,279,272 for the 4 quarter 2009.

[Daisy]

Hmmm, very interesting! Thanks, saw!!

It sure would be easier (not to mention more honest) if they would just tell it like it really is - the whole story and not just the best highlights to make themselves look good!! :cool:

[chief26]

Now daisy informed people are a threat to modern government why would you ask for the moon?:naughty:

[Daisy]

Hmm, maybe because I'm a strong believer in honesty and ethics and expect no less from my city, state and national leaders......silly me......:rolleyes:

[saw]

I got my census form this AM which was hand delivered in a nice plastic bag that you hang on the door knob.

Typical goverment thinking. While the post office is going broke, the census bureau is hiring folks along with their autos to hand deliver the form plus the cost of the anti green plastic bag. :ohwell:

[Daisy]

Sheesh....:pinch: So, maybe hiring people is cheaper than the cost of postage?? Maybe they think people would throw it away as junk mail? Or it would get 'lost in the mail'? Or everyone doesn't have a mailbox or post office box? Or postal workers are too overworked as it is?

Who knows what their reasoning (or lack of) was on that one.

[John M. Cleary]

Mine was tied to my fence.......in a 60 mph wind, brilliant.

I wrote 2,where it says how many live here and sent it back.

[Daisy]

I haven't got one yet.......:weep:

Yep, I plan to only answer the number of peope living in this house, too. That's all they need to know for a count...

[Daisy]

Uh oh, I just read this on the Census Bureau site - better think about it before leaving the form incomplete...

The American Community Survey is conducted under the authority of Title 13, United States Code, Sections 141 and 193, and response is mandatory.

Title 18 U.S.C. Section 3571 and Section 3559, in effect amends Title 13 U.S.C. Section 221 by changing the fine for anyone over 18 years old who refuses or willfully neglects to complete the questionnaire or answer questions posed by census takers from a fine of not more than $100 to not more than $5,000.

[Zoidberg]

What big-government president signed that into law? Could it have been Ronald Reagan in 1987?

[mfish]

I got this letter in the mail yesterday, so evidently there's money to burn on "preview" marketing...

Knowing that federal and state money doesn’t come from "Obama’s stash" and does come from our own paychecks and our friend’s and neighbor’s paychecks, I found the 2010 US Census form letter puzzling. Yes, I know that the census is required (but not all forms are completed) and helps allocate federal funds, but this was much more in-your-face and clearly baits the reader with federal funds that they “need” as quoted:

Dear Resident:

About one week from now, you will receive a 2010 Census form in the mail. When you receive your form, please fill it out and mail it in promptly. Your response is important. Results from the 2010 Census will be used to help each community get its fair share of government funds for highways, schools, health facilities, and many other programs you and your neighbors need. Without a complete, accurate census, your community may not receive its fair share. Thank you in advance for your help.

Sincerely, Robert M. Groves
Director, U.S. Census Bureau

Go to (the web site was listed here, but I'm not in any mood to aid and abet) for help completing your 2010 Census form when it arrives. [Note: this sentence is repeated in Spanish, Chinese, Vietnamese and Russian]

[Daisy]

I got that same letter, with all those same languages for the website, and thought the same thing - what a waste of money!

Then, of course, they had to remind us that we may not get our "fair share" of government funds if we don't fill out a "complete, accurate census".

OMG, I must fill out zee papers.....:vertag:

I found the pre-census letter more than puzzling. I thought it was a giant waste of those government funds the letter spoke of. The government people just don't get it when it comes to money...:no3:

[Daisy]

Wow, what a surprise......:cool:

Look closely at the number amounts of money spent on this - do you really think this government is going to have anything left to send to the different communities? They spent $85 million on those advance letters - the census is coming, the census is coming! This is really messed up! :no3:

Census Bureau Over Budget (http://www.foxnews.com/politics/2010/03/15/census-bureau-running-budget-heavy-counting-gets-way/?test=latestnews)

[oladcock]

We got ours yesterday and it'll go out in the mail today. We answered everything they need to draw congressional lines and determine how many are of drafting age. We did not answer the race questions, housing questions, or phone number so I'm looking forward to the visit so I can hand them a copy of the constitution! :)....O.L.

[Daisy]

For the race thing, we put other and then put American in the box. For the telephone number and some others, we put 'not necessary for census count'. We answered all questions, just not from their answers. It's all good.....

[Scott]

I filled mine out this morning and left a note that there wasn't enough space for the 15 people living at my home. I told them we are all illegal space aliens. I sure hope they don't send INS.

[oladcock]

"I told them we are all illegal space aliens." LOL Not to worry. They'll throw them a bread crumb of social assistance and a union application so they'll vote democrat. **laugh**...O.L.

[saw]

I received my third piece of mail yesterday reminding me of how important the census is from the feds not to mention at least three from the local census committee.. This does not include the hand delivered census form. I hear commercials on the radio ever day telling me that if we don't know how many people there is in Roswell that we will not how many traffic lights that we need. Then the Parade magazine has a full back page ad advising me "If we don't know how big our community is, how do we know how big our hospitals need to be?"

Then we got Dorrie Faubulas from the C of C telling us on the radio that if we get more than fifty thousand population that new businesses will be kicking our doors down to get into town, more eating places, etc.

Does anyone besides me believe that this a waste of money and will have little to no results in getting people counted that did not intend to be counted? **laugh**

The feds should just advertise that they are giving away $10 bills at the civic center and when they show up to get the money just have them fill out the census forms. Then tell them the check is in the mail:naughty:

Just think how many millions of dollars everone could save!!!

[mfish]

I mailed in my cesus form the day I received it, including all the information needed as mandated by our Constitution, and nothing more.

I too, have received at least two additional mailings "reminding" me to get the census form returned ...

I really, reaallly hope a census worker comes to my door when I'm home. I plan on having a great day of personal enjoyment and entertainment if/when that happens.

[saw]

The latest census ad. "If we don't know how many people we have, how do we know how many roads we need?"

My thought "If we don't know how many roads we have, how do we know how many people we need?"

It is good to know that our taxpayers dollars are being spent so wisely!!!

[oladcock]

Is it Steve Henderson that's doing the ads on KBIM?

"If we don't know how many people we have, how do we know how many roads we need?"

Horse biscuits.....

How many people isn't an issue...Race, own or rent, phone number???? Never driven on a road that cares....O.L.

[mfish]

That's one of the silliest ad campaigns I have ever heard ... and it's not "localized" to just you I've heard it Central Texas, too - this is pablum passed down from the Census Bureau, so that makes it even scarier ...

[saw]

Have not heard Henderson yet but heard Dorrie Fabulas on 910 AM telling me that if we hit 50,000 new eating places, motels, factories, etc. would be breaking down our doors and everthing would be just fabulas.

[pdc]

I completed my census form yesterday, as per directions...

... and answered all ten questions - not one seemed remotely controversial, intrusive or inappropriate to me.

But then, I've never been plagued by either paranoia or political fanaticism.

What a world.

[oladcock]

"... and answered all ten questions - not one seemed remotely controversial, intrusive or inappropriate to me."


Of course not, mushrooms like the crap they are fed!


"But then, I've never been plagued by either paranoia or political fanaticism."

You think your version of paranoia or political fanaticism is normal! :naughty:

We answered the 4 or 5 that's applicable to appropriating congressional seats. None of the rest applied therefore illegal and none of their business. It has nothing to do with being paranoid or politics and has everything to do with the constitution and principles it holds.....O.L.

[pdc]

We answered the 4 or 5 that's applicable to appropriating congressional seats. None of the rest applied therefore illegal and none of their business. It has nothing to do with being paranoid or politics and has everything to do with the constitution and principles it holds.....O.L.
Constitution of the United States, Article 1, Section 2: "The actual Enumeration shall be made within three Years after the first Meeting of the Congress of the United States, and within every subsequent Term of ten Years, in such Manner as they shall by Law direct."

You frequently refer to some vague notion of "the constitution and principles it holds", but you never cite the actual Constitution - what a joke!!!

[oladcock]

"You frequently refer to some vague notion of "the constitution and principles it holds","

Easy to say from a political leaning that has no respect for either.

May I direct you to the Websters on the definition of "Enumeration"...To count..."in such Manner as they shall by Law direct."....Whether I own or rent, what race, etc...Has NOTHING to do with congressional districts.

The fact no one has ever been fined for not answering speaks volumes, they have no grounds to do so.

Data other than numbers has and can be used to gerrymander, play their game if you wish.......O.L.

[saw]

Someone stuck 16 business card size magnetic signs on the tailgate of my pickup promoting the Roswell 2010 census.

That will influence someone, I am sure, to rush down and fill out his or her's census form.

Don't you like it when a plan starts to work. (the plan to spend $40,000.00 of Roswell's tax dollars to convince a few folks to fill out the census forms)

[oladcock]

Yesterday was the deadline and I heard on the news only 52% have mailed them off nation wide. Saw, at least the administration created a job for someone to stick stuff on your truck! How much did it hurt your gas mileage? :) .....O.L.

[pdc]

Yesterday was the deadline and I heard on the news only 52% have mailed them off nation wide. Saw, at least the administration created a job for someone to stick stuff on your truck! How much did it hurt your gas mileage? :) .....O.L.

In fact, yesterday, April 1st, was the day to complete the census forms.

Failure to answer all the questions will likely result in a census worker having to come to your home - not bad for US employment, considering the census has already added over 48,000 jobs, and the heavy work period for census-takers comes this month...

... OTOH, for those opposed to frivolous government spending, failure to answer the questions will increase the final cost of the census.

[mfish]

I really, really hope a census worker comes to my door.

[oladcock]

"... OTOH, for those opposed to frivolous government spending, failure to answer the questions will increase the final cost of the census."

At least that one is actually working for a taxpayer check! :shoot: Don't try to use that arguement if they spend money trying to get answers to questions they have no business asking to start with. Just more $$$ from China that can't go to paying off bribes. Sonny, I look forward to visiting with you! :)

pdc, did you sign your census? I let my illegal immigrant house keeper who works for ACORN fill mine out....O.L.

A left wing rag but has numbers: http://newmexicoindependent.com/50547/nm-lags-below-national-average-in-census-returns

[kralspaces]

"Of the ten largest municipalities in the 2000 election, Roswell has the highest participation rate in this census, with 51 percent. Albuquerque has a 48 percent participation rate."

Hopefully that $40,000 will pay off, but the numbers are low across the nation. I wonder why?

[pdc]

Hopefully that $40,000 will pay off, but the numbers are low across the nation. I wonder why?
One reason would be that the numbers currently being reported are incomplete - many of the mailings have not yet been received/counted by the Census Bureau....

[oladcock]

The highest participation in 2000 for NM counties was 73%...This was back when we trusted our government and politicians. I doubt the numbers will be much different and I suspect they count ones mailed in whether they are complete or not. If counting was so important, how do they know what % participated? Hummmmmmm? Makes you wonder doesn't it? :) ...O.L.

[pdc]

If counting was so important, how do they know what % participated? Hummmmmmm? Makes you wonder doesn't it? :) ...O.L.

Duh!! They send out census workers to addresses that do not respond...

... Open your eyes; take of the ideological blinders; engage your brain....

ROTFLMAO!!!

[oladcock]

"They send out census workers to addresses that do not respond..."

So they send out 100, get 100 back, that's 100% participation...How accurate is it? Is that 73% in 2000 before or after the workers canvas? This is all hard numbers, nothing ideological about it, just questions about the validity....O.L.

[pdc]

"They send out census workers to addresses that do not respond..."

So they send out 100, get 100 back, that's 100% participation...How accurate is it? Is that 73% in 2000 before or after the workers canvas? This is all hard numbers, nothing ideological about it, just questions about the validity....O.L.

From the article you yourself cited above:
“We’re off to a great start, but we still have a ways to go to before getting a complete count of the nation,” Census Bureau Director Robert Groves said. “If everyone in the nation took the 10 minutes needed to fill out and mail back their 2010 Census form, we could cut the cost of conducting the census by $1.5 billion.”

When census forms are not mailed back, the Census Bureau sends workers to collect the information.

The "participation rate" measures the rate of return of the mailed census forms - do you even rwad your own links? If you do, what in the world keeps you from comprehending them???

Open you eyes; take of the ideological blinders; engage your brain!

[oladcock]

"do you even rwad your own links? If you do, what in the world keeps you from comprehending them???"

Of course I do. Do you? Cause it answers NONE of the questions I asked. Sure, send out 100, get back 100, 100% participation. It says nothing about accuracy of those returns and it doesn't say if the participation numbers are before or after worker canvas. As in we send out 100 get 50 back, send out canvasers to the 50 that didn't send in and get 30 to comply. Is that 50% participation or 80%? The accuracy....They don't require a signature or any other positive tracking. If I fill it out completely and say there are 6 under this roof when there's really only 2. You could get 100% participation that's 400% inaccurate. For something that's so important, I'm just looking for confidence it's accurate..I don't see it...O.L.

[saw]

When someone says 51% I want to know, 51% of what and when?

51% of what they expected? 51% of the number of forms that they mailed out? I guess that they (the census folks) know how many forms that they mailed out.

If they are talking about the % of the forms that they mailed out it would be way to soon to be talking about the results. It will take about six days just to get to wherever via USPD and another six days to tab. This info could be two weeks old.

How do the numbers for Roswell compare with the numbers in 2000 at this same time. How many more census forms did they mail out compared to the number in 2000? That would be a good indication about the number of folks in Roswell.

Another stat to think about. The RISD shool enrollment is less in 2009 than it was in 1998. The city has access to all of the numbers to estimate the population of Roswell, why don't they tell us what they are?

[saw]

The last ad that I heard, "If we don't know how many people we have, how do we know how many busses we need?"

[oladcock]

"The last ad that I heard, "If we don't know how many people we have, how do we know how many busses we need?"

I'm not certain but I'd suspect our population now is not much different now than it was in 1967 or so before Walker closed...How many busses did we have then? This ain't rocket science, how many crowds do you see at bus stops? How many busses do we see full? Guess we don't need any more and can get rid of a few if not all....O.L.

[saw]

How about a census numbers projections game?

My projection, 47,315 anybody else want to make a projection?

[mfish]

I'll be surprised if it's that high, Saw ...
Maybe it'll hit 47,000 ...

[oladcock]

41K....May not matter with only 50-60% sending them in. It was noted conservative counties have returned the highest %..Isn't that interesting....O.L.

[NeightGT]

My home state full of Democrats are amoung the highest returns in the country in the 80th% in many cities, Meanwhile New Mexico is the 2nd lowest just behind Alaska...

I'm guessing 47,900 if they did any follow-up door-to-door

[saw]

Maybe someone can educate me, why does the census commitee say(RDR today) that we have had a 70% return on the mailed out census forms but never say how many were mailed out?

70% of how many?

If they know that 70% have been returned then they have to know how many were sent out, right? Nope, they just spend some more of the taxpayers bucks and put up a sign that says 70% has returned the census forms.

[jsatterfield]

To answer a lot of questions about the 2010 census, You have to remember that the Obama Administration is now in control of the 2010 census, with Rahm Emanuel in charge Now. :yucky:

[Jim]

With all President Obama has on his plate that occupies Emanuel's time as well I hope he has delegated the census matters to subordinates. Most of them are probably career federal employees and the temporary hires just for this census.

[jsatterfield]

The Obama administration had no business taking control of the Census, In MNSHO they are up to no good for doing it.:ninja_hide:

[Daisy]

A guy named Robert Groves is the Census Bureau Director appointed by Obama.

There seem to be problems with the computer the Census Bureau is using for the door to door count...

Census Has Computer Problem (http://www.google.com/hostednews/ap/article/ALeqM5hO06PEsNVBcpcKm1sL-cVSwlj2cwD9FDNILO0)

[saw]

Last night at the council meeting the official census lady told us again how well everthing was going and that Roswell had returned 72% of its mail in forms.

Can anyone tell us, 72% of what? I was on the edge of my chair waiting for one of the Councilmen or the Mayor to ask 72% of what.

Although she talked for a long time, she did not say much. I did hear her say something about 36,000? households, can anyone tell me what she did say?

Was that number for Roswell, the county, or where?

[oladcock]

"There seem to be problems with the computer the Census Bureau is using for the door to door count..."

Think this is why they want to control the internet? :) Naw....Has to be something for our own good...O.L.

[Jim]

Sometime in grammar school we had to figure out what 100% was if we knew what 72% was.

She was an attractive lady. Maybe they weren't paying attention to her long talk. Those presentations to the council can take a long time. Dare I say boringly so.

What are the qualifications to be a census taker? At first she said quite a number of applicants didn't qualify and then she said she had all she needed in Chavez County.

They certainly give everyone a chance to be counted. Initial mailing, then 3 visits to the home and then 3 phone calls. What happens after that?

[saw]

I guess I missed that part of grammer school so if anybody out there that can calculate what 72% of X (the unknown) is let me know. (.72X is not an acceptable answer) Just tell me how many census forms did they mail out. She said that they mailed out one to every address in Roswell. Do you think that they don't want us to know how many forms they mailed out? Is this a secret that us peons can't handle? Big numbers do tend to muddle our little pea-sized brains, right SamSara.

That number that could not qualify to be a census worker is about the same percentages that business men have to go through to hire an employee in Roswell.

There was a call center that was considering locating in Roswell until they interview some applicants and found that of 1200 +- only about 200+- would qualify for the needs of a call center. They could not type, read, write, no math skills, no command of the English language, etc. Needless to say they did not locate in Roswell, but in Alamogordo.

[Jim]

Would it be fair to say that about 83% of those applicants for the call center were illiterate? Is non-employable a better word? I remember that .... we lost that business to Alamogordo because of that. When we talk about getting new businesses here we have to be aware that. More business = more people = higher census count. We need to focus on educating our kids better so they can pass these employment exams.
If we want more businesses to come to Roswell so we'll have more jobs and a better economy we'd better first make sure we have an employable workforce.

[mfish]

Most expensive Census in history:

http://biggovernment.com/wshughart/2010/05/21/most-expensive-census-in-history/

[mfish]

You tax dollars at work:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9zJ04AWn-5w&

[mfish]

MORE census fun ... more tax dollars wasted:

http://biggovernment.com/sadeleye/2010/06/02/undercover-census-fraud-investigation-louisiana/

[saw]

I have been told that there was "something over 19,000 census forms" mailed out in Roswell. One is mailed out to ever address in Roswell, vacant or occupied.

Jan 7, 2010 the city had 16881 residential water meters on line of that number 15744 were active. (1137 inactive) One water meter may serve more one than housing unit such as an apartment. This does not include houses that are vacant that the meter has been removed nor does it include vacant houses that still have an active water meter. For instance, a vacant rent house can and most likely has an active water meter so that the yard can be watered, etc.

The 2000 census stated that Roswell had 19,327 housing units(ie. apartments contain multiple housing units) and that 17,068 were occupied. (2259 vacant) The total population at that time was reported at 45,293 or an average of 2.65 occupants per occupied housing units.

The county states that Roswell has some 16,694 residential buildings on the tax rolls. A residential building can be a single family residence or a multiple family residence. An apartment complex like Saddle Creek would be counted as 7-8 residential buildings while other apartments that consist of only one building is counted as one residential building.

[oladcock]

So 2.65 times 15744 is 41722..A long way from 50K..I think I saw a census worker in the neighborhood yesterday, didn't get a visit however. She did spent a lot of time under an oak tree, praying to the mighty ACORN I guess? :)...O.L.

[mfish]

Reactionary perhaps - but needed:

http://www.usatoday.com/news/nation/census/2010-06-02-census_N.htm

[Neil]

Would it be fair to say that about 83% of those applicants for the call center were illiterate? Is non-employable a better word? I remember that .... we lost that business to Alamogordo because of that. When we talk about getting new businesses here we have to be aware that. More business = more people = higher census count. We need to focus on educating our kids better so they can pass these employment exams.
If we want more businesses to come to Roswell so we'll have more jobs and a better economy we'd better first make sure we have an employable workforce.

The greatest hurdle to employers is finding someone who can pass a drug test.
Now if New Mexico could follow Louisiana:naughty:

http://www.wafb.com/global/story.asp?s=12350065

[saw]

The census 2009 (July 1, 2009) estimates states that Roswell has a population of 46,576.

The estimate in 2000 (April 1,2000) missed the actual count by 12 folks.

Don't look like 50,000 is in our near future. Maybe by 2025.

Fish, looks like you were right when you predicted less than 47,000

[kralspaces]

The greatest hurdle to employers is finding someone who can pass a drug test.
Now if New Mexico could follow Louisiana:naughty:

http://www.wafb.com/global/story.asp?s=12350065

Good post Neil. That requirement should have been in 'welfare reform' the first time around. Roswell would have less than 2% unemployment today.